• Class action suit against Daimler AG / Mercedes due to M156 V8 (63 AMG) engine defects

      A class action suit is being brought against Mercedes / Daimler AG due to alleged defects in the M156 V8 motor. The suit states that these defects are due to premature wear. The premature wear taking place as a result of the material used in the camshafts. The camshafts used are made of cast nodular iron. The valve lifters used however are made of 9310 grade steel. In the official complaint it is stated that the combination of these metals as designed is contributing to premature wear of the M156 motors. This can be due to improper heat treating of the metals or improper offset. The main sticking point is that Mercedes and AMG have known about this since 2007 when service bulletin S-B 05.20/20b was released. We will keep you updated on the details as this goes forward.



































      This article was originally published in forum thread: Class action suit against Daimler AG / Mercedes due to M156 V8 (63 AMG) engine defects started by Sticky View original post
      Comments 842 Comments
      1. Yomama69's Avatar
        Yomama69 -
        Intro to Business up in this $#@!.

        Nobody has any reason to be telling someone else how to run their business. I'm pretty sure your opinion was unsolicited.
      1. MHP LLC's Avatar
        MHP LLC -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sonny Click here to enlarge
        So now we've heard that MB revised the heads several times but ignored the cams/buckets problem in every revision? Hard to believe. It may be true, but I'm skeptical right now.

        Also, why would higher mileage cars be more at risk than cars with less miles that have been beat on at the track or heavy street use?

        I remember reading about cam position faults and some other issues about the cams, but were cams ever replaced with ones of better quality (the good cams)? If so, does anyone know if MB has designed and manufactured good, non-defective cams for these engines?

        Do all cams and buckets for the M156 (for all years) have the same part numbers?

        The more miles= the more wear on everything including the valvetrain.

        Also yes same part numbers.
      1. MHP LLC's Avatar
        MHP LLC -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LZH Click here to enlarge
        Andy - I really don't care what pisses you off or makes you happy. Assuming otherwise would be a mistake on your part. And I am not naive at all...seems though that you are, and it's only a matter of time until tuners like you are out of business.
        I have personally reiterated the fact that aftermarket tuning only has X number of years left before it's made illegal, in the U.S. anyway. There are ways around this but ultimately as I've stated it's a dying industry. So again you're just repeating what I've already said and trying to turn it into a useful tool for your side of the argument. Sadly it's not working. What you fail to recognize is that MHP entered the market during the most tumultuous time possible and since the year we did the market has shrunk by 65-70%. We are still here, and will continue to be one of the last standing.

        Let me ask you a question. Would you rather have the records for fastest or lots of cash? You can't have both so which would it be ?
        From MHP? Records. They are worth far more than $ to me as far as this business goes. I have other businesses that are non-related in markets that will continue to grow until the end of time. None are related to automotive tuning and I fail to see how any of this is your business anyway.

        While you've told us quite brashly about your financial situation and how you got there, I don't feel the same about posting mine. There are lines I will and won't cross but to get into a pissing match on the net about how much $ someone is worth is a joke.

        You claim to have so much technological knowledge of the M156 and have also claimed to have known about this problem for a while now. A problem that affects ALL M156 cars. Yet, you say it's AMG's problem and you have no intent on offering a fix...it's not your problem, blah blah blah...that strikes me as odd that you have identified a major defect and could easily grind a replacement stock cam and market the crap out of it - but you chose not to. All that tells me is that the problem really isn't a problem otherwise you would have been all over the idea of making a buck off it. Or perhaps your business acumen isn't that great. Either way I really don't give a sh!t and will carry on down the road.
        You're once again missing the point. Our solution is NEVER going to be cost effective, the levels of quality are just too high and we can't meet the volume demand MB would require. Even if we could doing so would mean sacrificing quality and diluting the MHP name. I have other businesses to sellout, automotive performance is my passion hence no selling out.

        You've also conveniently skipped over something I posted regarding our cams. Even if we don't sell another set publicly we have an entirely different market to cater to, and it doesn't get much better than this from any perspective.

        Finally you have no idea how lawsuits like these are resolved. In order to have our "fix" implemented MB would have to be shown there were no less cost effective ways to fix this (if they did it themselves bam there's your answer) so we would be screwing ourselves by even wasting a minute on this.

        Otherwise anytime you want to compare business acumen, IQ, knowledge about IC engines/cars, whatever just let me know and I will be glad to send you home with your tail between your legs again.

        Only one of us has any first hand experience with the topic being discussed, and only one of us is a master conspiracy theorist. I'll leave it up to the membership to decide who is who.

        It's great that you don't give a $#@! but I'm telling you again, do not put words in my mouth as a sponsor or otherwise.

        I'd rather focus on something productive now but if you feel the need to be corrected again by all means we can continue...
      1. MHP LLC's Avatar
        MHP LLC -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by PetroC63 Click here to enlarge
        Here is a link, see post #34. Calls it "camshaft adjusters".

        http://mbworld.org/forums/c63-amg-w2...-really-2.html

        Post #34
        Hey Jim,

        Good to see you over here again.

        To date we've seen what I would call a normal amount of camshaft adjuster failures (based on previous experience with mass produced OHCs like the Ford Modulars), also a proportionate amount of camshaft hall monitor sensor failures.

        Thanks
      1. MHP LLC's Avatar
        MHP LLC -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by b.wayne Click here to enlarge
        This is my initial thought as well. I would imagine there is some documentation or pictures verifying said damage/excessive wear. I'm not suggesting that there is nothing wrong with our motor's, but I'm wondering where the concrete proof is? Surely someone would have taken pictures had there been anything abnormal in the motor?
        There are plenty of pictures. That said I'm not sure the attys want them released publicly. If they don't care I'll throw some up.
      1. LZH's Avatar
        LZH -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by MHP LLC Click here to enlarge
        I have personally reiterated the fact that aftermarket tuning only has X number of years left before it's made illegal, in the U.S. anyway. There are ways around this but ultimately as I've stated it's a dying industry. So again you're just repeating what I've already said and trying to turn it into a useful tool for your side of the argument. Sadly it's not working. What you fail to recognize is that MHP entered the market during the most tumultuous time possible and since the year we did the market has shrunk by 65-70%. We are still here, and will continue to be one of the last standing.



        From MHP? Records. They are worth far more than $ to me as far as this business goes. I have other businesses that are non-related in markets that will continue to grow until the end of time. None are related to automotive tuning and I fail to see how any of this is your business anyway.

        While you've told us quite brashly about your financial situation and how you got there, I don't feel the same about posting mine. There are lines I will and won't cross but to get into a pissing match on the net about how much $ someone is worth is a joke.



        You're once again missing the point. Our solution is NEVER going to be cost effective, the levels of quality are just too high and we can't meet the volume demand MB would require. Even if we could doing so would mean sacrificing quality and diluting the MHP name. I have other businesses to sellout, automotive performance is my passion hence no selling out.

        You've also conveniently skipped over something I posted regarding our cams. Even if we don't sell another set publicly we have an entirely different market to cater to, and it doesn't get much better than this from any perspective.

        Finally you have no idea how lawsuits like these are resolved. In order to have our "fix" implemented MB would have to be shown there were no less cost effective ways to fix this (if they did it themselves bam there's your answer) so we would be screwing ourselves by even wasting a minute on this.

        Otherwise anytime you want to compare business acumen, IQ, knowledge about IC engines/cars, whatever just let me know and I will be glad to send you home with your tail between your legs again.

        Only one of us has any first hand experience with the topic being discussed, and only one of us is a master conspiracy theorist. I'll leave it up to the membership to decide who is who.

        It's great that you don't give a $#@! but I'm telling you again, do not put words in my mouth as a sponsor or otherwise.

        I'd rather focus on something productive now but if you feel the need to be corrected again by all means we can continue...
        You've misunderstood on two accounts. My questions were not at all geared towards comparing net worth - I'm pretty sure I know the answer to that one and its a good indicator of my business acumen so you can give it a rest there. And I was not suggesting MHP manufacturer the "fix" FOR AMG...I was suggesting that IF this problem was as pervasive as we've been led to believe...that it might not be a bad idea for someone (like you) to make an OEM replacement cam that won't wear and market it HERE, on the boards, to the members who have the ticking sound and believe this to as big of a problem as people are thinking. Considering you have seen so many of these prematurely worn motors, and your experience with cams on the M156, it kinda made sense. Clearly, you think differently. I wonder why? Perhaps, this overnight epidemic is nothing more than a few bad apples. Guess only time will tell.
      1. MHP LLC's Avatar
        MHP LLC -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by b.wayne Click here to enlarge
        Why wouldn't all M156 motor's be effected? Given enough miles, wouldn't all of them suffer the same fate?
        If the buckets spin the customer wins. If they don't, well...
      1. MHP LLC's Avatar
        MHP LLC -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by b.wayne Click here to enlarge
        Not trying to debate anyone here, but if we piece together the facts,

        1) Engine Ticking is a result of cams and bucket issue...
        1) A car with higher mileage is more than likely to have this issue then, especially since it was identified in motors with as little as 4k mi.
        3) My motor has 30,000mi. I am hearing no ticking.

        so what does this mean?

        I guess the only way to really find out is to rip out the head and have a look for ourselves. If excessive wear is present, then there should be more cause for concern.

        MHP, Weistec, Evosport, etc , do you guys have any pictures of customer cars with this type of excessive wear? I imagine someone that has seen this first hand must have documented this.

        Thanks in advance.

        Yes we have.

        The only way to verify is to visually inspect cams/buckets.

        Thanks
      1. MHP LLC's Avatar
        MHP LLC -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LZH Click here to enlarge
        You've misunderstood on two accounts. My questions were not at all geared towards comparing net worth - I'm pretty sure I know the answer to that one and its a good indicator of my business acumen so you can give it a rest there.
        Now you're suggesting intelligence and net worth go hand in hand? ROFL. Seriously?

        I'm sure you are wealthier than I am, I have no problem admitting it. As far as happiness goes, I love what I do for a living on the other hand the constant negativity and need to display supremacy in your threads tips your hand for you.

        And I was not suggesting MHP manufacturer the "fix" FOR AMG...I was suggesting that IF this problem was as pervasive as we've been led to believe...that it might not be a bad idea for someone (like you) to make an OEM replacement cam that won't wear and market it HERE, on the boards, to the members who have the ticking sound and believe this to as big of a problem as people are thinking. Considering you have seen so many of these prematurely worn motors, and your experience with cams on the M156, it kinda made sense. Clearly, you think differently. I wonder why? Perhaps, this overnight epidemic is nothing more than a few bad apples. Guess only time will tell.
        You can ignore the facts if you wish but the bottom line is this suit would have been tossed already had not there not been sufficient evidence/proof displayed.

        I explained above in detail why we won't be addressing this issue directly. MB can fix is cheaper and therefore any $ we spend is a waste--MB has to be court ordered to use our fix which is a lengthy and difficult process. MB knows what it would take to fix the issue, which is far less than implementing our fix would cost, yet they still aren't doing anything. All decisions made at that level are based on cost.

        As a tuner I wish there were no issues with the M156, I wish I could say they are as flawless as we all hoped a clean sheet motor from AMG would be, however that is not the case and I'm just giving you the facts.

        We stand to profit not a dollar from this, in fact as I said before this may end up costing us more business than anything.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by P31-C63 Click here to enlarge
        curious to see if and how this will effect the value of cars with the M156 motor.
        If this comes out in your favor in will bolster resale for everyone with the motor.
      1. MHP LLC's Avatar
        MHP LLC -
        One last note, automotive tuning is not the type of career you can retire off of at an early age or at anytime really. There are niche's like rebuilding older cars, etc but they are few and far between. Anyone that thinks this is a get rich and retire type of business is probably carrying an extra chromosome.

        I didn't start MHP to make $ and legitimately speaking it's never been a priority for us. If that's your main goal (profit) you're in the wrong business. Pretty much anyone that works in this genre of biz will tell you the same less Brabus, and/or other tuners with less than savory business partners ie Gemballa.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LZH Click here to enlarge
        I find it very odd that people are coming out of the woodwork now and jumping on the internet bandwagon saying, "Oh I've know about this problem for a while now". Really ??? I've seen countless threads with people complaining and nit picking about everything possibly imaginable regarding AMG's - and now, out of the blue when this lawsuit gets filed, we have a group of members who claim to have known about the problem (which if it's true is a very serious problem) and have seen it firsthand...yet never said a word about it ?????? I'm not buying it one bit. I'm not saying the problem doesn't exist, maybe it does....what I am saying though is that I know for a fact that if anyone posting in this thread knew about the problem, they would have said something LONG BEFORE this lawsuit was filed and posted here.
        I can tell you there were maybe 3 people on this board who knew anything about it, one being myself. Why didn't I say anything? I already stated it would have looked stupid if the papers did not get filed and this did not go forward. Also, I did not want to affect this is in any way.

        Now that all the details are up, you can look for yourself.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by P31-C63 Click here to enlarge
        dare I say I agree with LZH? I've never read anything about this specific problem outlined this way--ticking, of course, but that's about it--$#@!, I thought I've read everything about this engine by now!! God knows, not much gets by you LZH!!
        Do you really study every service bulletin released?
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JRCART Click here to enlarge
        I specifically remember looking at my cams when my car was still back at evosport and I did not see any signs of excesive cam lobe wear, as a matter of fact my SLS cams where sitting right next to them and I could not even tell which was which
        This tells me you may not know how to spot what excess vs. normal wear would be. I would not know how to either.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LZH Click here to enlarge
        If it's out there, I can't find it. Would you mind posting a link????
        The best place to start is the service bulletin and move out from there.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sonny Click here to enlarge
        Also, I tend to agree with others in this forum who are asking where the public proof was about this specific issue (cams and buckets being defective and damaging the engine upon every drive) prior to this suit coming out.
        Why does it have to be public proof? A majority of this comes from inside Mercedes anyway which proves that the manufacturer was aware. Plus, it's the job of the lawyers to prove this so why not follow the case? Clearly they think they enough evidence and proof.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by b.wayne Click here to enlarge
        This is just goofy, I can't post links. Can someone bump my rep up so I can post a link?
        It isn't goofy, it protects us from spammers and trolls. I don't think you are either so I bumped you up.

        Here is your image:

        Click here to enlarge
      1. LZH's Avatar
        LZH -
        Still not buying it. Sorry. I'll wait and see where the lawsuit goes. My gut feeling though is that this will get paid off in a confidential settlement and Mercedes will have no obligation to take care of anyone else.
      1. MHP LLC's Avatar
        MHP LLC -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LZH Click here to enlarge
        Still not buying it. Sorry. I'll wait and see where the lawsuit goes. My gut feeling though is that this guy will get paid off in a confidential settlement and Mercedes will have no obligation to take care of anyone else.
        The sky is blue in CA right?

        just checking Click here to enlarge
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LZH Click here to enlarge
        Still not buying it. Sorry. I'll wait and see where the lawsuit goes. My gut feeling though is that this guy will get paid off in a confidential settlement and Mercedes will have no obligation to take care of anyone else.
        No worries, it doesn't matter to me one way or another since I don't have an M156. However, many of you guys do, so if something is indeed wrong with the design I hope you get taken care of.