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    • Class action suit against Daimler AG / Mercedes due to M156 V8 (63 AMG) engine defects

      A class action suit is being brought against Mercedes / Daimler AG due to alleged defects in the M156 V8 motor. The suit states that these defects are due to premature wear. The premature wear taking place as a result of the material used in the camshafts. The camshafts used are made of cast nodular iron. The valve lifters used however are made of 9310 grade steel. In the official complaint it is stated that the combination of these metals as designed is contributing to premature wear of the M156 motors. This can be due to improper heat treating of the metals or improper offset. The main sticking point is that Mercedes and AMG have known about this since 2007 when service bulletin S-B 05.20/20b was released. We will keep you updated on the details as this goes forward.




































      This article was originally published in forum thread: Class action suit against Daimler AG / Mercedes due to M156 V8 (63 AMG) engine defects started by Sticky View original post
      Comments 842 Comments
      1. Yomama69's Avatar
        Yomama69 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sonny Click here to enlarge
        Right, but if you are willing, look at my questions above. Did MB fix this problem with new cams that are available?

        Apology accepted.
        No. If the problem was fixed, it would have been included in a recall to all vehicles, which has not happened.
      1. Yomama69's Avatar
        Yomama69 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sonny Click here to enlarge
        I respect MHP to no end, but who's running their cams? I thought they are still a work in progress?
        There are a few guys on the forum running them from my understanding. Dadsc63 might b one of them.
      1. LZH's Avatar
        LZH -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by PetroC63 Click here to enlarge
        Here is a link, see post #34. Calls it "camshaft adjusters".

        http://mbworld.org/forums/c63-amg-w2...-really-2.html

        Post #34
        Thank you for the link. However, that guys experience goes against what everyone has been saying here. His was fixed under warranty by the dealer. Whats being said here and in the lawsuit is that AMG knows about the problem and is DENYING warranty claims for repair. And furthermore, I don't see one person in that MBW thread who is posting here saying they have know about the problem for a long time.

        A short story for you guys. I used to post on Rennlist a long time ago when I had a few Porsches. My first was a '96 993 C2. Then I got a C2S and traded that for a 993 Turbo S. The 993 motor had one major problem; the secondary air injection pump that caused excessive carbon buildup on the valves. Lots of higher mileage 993's needed a complete valve job and that was a pretty expensive repair - especially if you did it right...Anyway, there was one guy on Rennlist who was attributed with pinpointing the problem and going after Porsche for it. He did the entire Porsche community a great service and was hailed as the 993 guru on Rennlist commanding lots of respect.
        I find it VERY hard to believe that anyone posting in this thread has seen this multiple times and never bothered to take one single picture. Had they done so, they would have received the same amount of attention and respect this 993 guy did. But yet, now that this lawsuit has been filed, we have the typical amount of know it all's clamoring for attention saying they knew about this problem long ago. Again, I'm not buying it and until someone can show some firsthand proof, I'll treat this topic with same amount of attention for that which I flush down the toilet every morning.
      1. b.wayne's Avatar
        b.wayne -
        This is just goofy, I can't post links. Can someone bump my rep up so I can post a link? In the mean time check out the Service Bulletin. There is a Repair part number as well. Curious if the part numbers are just replacement of the same parts or are new. img.photobucket.com/albums/v149/curtisc/PB052020_Page_1.jpg)clickhere

        Edit: i think repair kit just mentions the special tools that are needed to correct said problem. It seems like they just replace it with the same part number.
      1. PetroC63's Avatar
        PetroC63 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sonny Click here to enlarge
        If I'm not mistakene that owners problem was a loud ticking sound that proportionally grew louder with the pressing of the accelerator. If so, that's not the ticking we all hear upon many of our start ups. However, maybe all of our engines have the potential to start sounding like that car?
        Your guess is as good as mine. We hear ticking now. What will it sound like in 2 or 3 years?

        The "adjusters" were replaced under warranty but will the sound return in time? or did MB fix the problem for good?

        The last thing I want is a 40K boat anchor. Also, I race the car on a regular basis which, if these claims are accurate, help accelerate the wear and tear I would think.
      1. Yomama69's Avatar
        Yomama69 -
        You're reading it wrong. It never states that MB is denying warranty. It states MB didn't replace parts under warranty, i.e. issue a recall. I don't remember the thread on mbw, but a dude in NY had his engine completely replaced under warranty only after going to war with MB over it. Guess what though. MB replaced the engine with a new engine with the same defective parts in it.
      1. LZH's Avatar
        LZH -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Yomama69 Click here to enlarge
        Perhaps there's a reason MHP created new camshafts. For other companies, perhaps ignorance is bliss?
        First of all the MHP cams for the M156 they have been developing are modified from the OEM cams. Andy has stated here that they have run into a bunch of problems running modified cams that cannot be fixed with ECU tuning. Unlike you, I like to back up what I say with proof - so here's the link to Andy discussing their cams:

        http://www.benzboost.com/showthread....132#post193132

        But that begs the question!!!!!! If MHP and Barfly KNEW ABOUT THE PROBLEM - then why are they continuing to make aftermarket sticks for the M156?!?!?!?!? Wouldn't it make more sense to tell everyone about what a HUGE problem there is with the M156, take photos, document everything and then say - BUT WAIT!!!! Hope is not lost !!!!! We at MHP have the answer and we are currently offering 9310 grade steel cams ground to EXACT OEM specs made out of the same material as the OEM lifters and buckets so you can rest easy and know your precious M156 motor will keep running strong for years to come as long as you buy our cams.
        LOL - seems to me that if anyone knew about this epidemic long ago, they would have made the cams and made a killing selling them to all you people on here now who are buying this garbage.

        You are right about one thing...Ignorance IS bliss.
      1. Yomama69's Avatar
        Yomama69 -
        I'm pretty sure the MHP camshafts are not made from the same metal and/or has a different heat treatment than the OEM camshafts. Are you a conspiracy theorist also or just a cynic?

        You're comments are similar to some of those people in the N54 community when the HPFP failures started. They were very cynical about a defect. As time went on, some of them crossed over....then some experienced failures themselves. I'd put more stock in a lawsuit being filed knowing what typically goes on before filing before I put my stock in some average Joe who drives a car.
      1. PetroC63's Avatar
        PetroC63 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Yomama69 Click here to enlarge
        You're reading it wrong. It never states that MB is denying warranty. It states MB didn't replace parts under warranty, i.e. issue a recall. I don't remember the thread on mbw, but a dude in NY had his engine completely replaced under warranty only after going to war with MB over it. Guess what though. MB replaced the engine with a new engine with the same defective parts in it.
        I read it that the plaintiff's(Mr. Chan) vehicle was out of warranty? but claims MB knew about the alleged defect and continued to install alleged defective parts knowingly, instead of issuing a recall? The plaintiff demands to be reimbursed for moneys spent out of pocket to repair said defect.

        Sorry if I misunderstood.Click here to enlarge
      1. LZH's Avatar
        LZH -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Yomama69 Click here to enlarge
        I'm pretty sure the MHP camshafts are not made from the same metal and/or has a different heat treatment than the OEM camshafts. Are you a conspiracy theorist also or just a cynic?

        You're comments are similar to some of those people in the N54 community when the HPFP failures started. They were very cynical about a defect. As time went on, some of them crossed over....then some experienced failures themselves. I'd put more stock in a lawsuit being filed knowing what typically goes on before filing before I put my stock in some average Joe who drives a car.
        No, I'm someone who can see the writing on the wall - clearly your common sense it being clouded by your vocation. If MHP had knowledge of this apparent massive problem that exists on EVERY M156 motor made, don't you think they would have brought it to light and made a SH!TLOAD more money selling replacement cams to fix the problem rather then selling aftermarket cams with a different grind ??? I realize they are in the business of going fast - but they are also in the business of making money.
        Having the only knowledge of this problem would seem to be a great opportunity to make a boatload of cash. If you can't see that apparent link, then I feel sorry for your clients.
      1. Yomama69's Avatar
        Yomama69 -
        In or out of warranty is not the issue. The issue is that the premature wear (defect) took place within the warranty period and is therefore covered under warranty. So, MB should have issued a recall, but did not. Why would they? Most manufacturers don't until lawyers get involved.
      1. Yomama69's Avatar
        Yomama69 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LZH Click here to enlarge
        No, I'm someone who can see the writing on the wall - clearly your common sense it being clouded by your vocation. If MHP had knowledge of this apparent massive problem that exists on EVERY M156 motor made, don't you think they would have brought it to light and made a SH!TLOAD more money selling replacement cams to fix the problem rather then selling aftermarket cams with a different grind ??? I realize they are in the business of going fast - but they are also in the business of making money.
        Having the only knowledge of this problem would seem to be a great opportunity to make a boatload of cash. If you can't see that apparent link, then I feel sorry for your clients.
        I can't speak for MHP on why they took the direction they did. Clearly you have no problem doing so. Either you know something I don't about MHP's internal business or your life runs on speculation. Regardless of the intent they were created, that metallurgy is improved over the OEM. You feel sorry for my clients, because I don't speculate on "links"? Thanks, but they don't need your sympathy. They are well represented.
      1. LZH's Avatar
        LZH -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Yomama69 Click here to enlarge
        I can't speak for MHP on why they took the direction they did. Clearly you have no problem doing so. Either you know something I don't about MHP's internal business or your life runs on speculation. Regardless of the intent they were created, that metallurgy is improved over the OEM. You feel sorry for my clients, because I don't speculate on "links"? Thanks, but they don't need your sympathy. They are well represented.
        Yeah, your clients are well represented while you bill them for your time here LOL. Anyway...I'll try to not get off topic here. Your missing my point. I don't know MHP's intent or internal business practices but I can draw conclusions on my own. They've said they are having problems with aftermarket cams - linked above so that is fact. They have also have apparently seen this OEM cam/lifter/bucket problem firsthand. So if that is the case, would it not make sense to scrap the idea of an aftermarket cam that they can't get to work, and just grind the OEM cam in the same harder material that they tried to make the aftermarket cam out of?? Seems pretty logical to me if they did in fact know about the problem and have seen it in 4 cars firsthand as Barfly said. I'm surprised no one else picked up on this...
      1. M3_WC's Avatar
        M3_WC -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by P31-C63 Click here to enlarge
        curious to see if and how this will effect the value of cars with the M156 motor.
        if this lawsuit comes out in favor of the plaintiff(s) then it will be a good thing for getting our cars repaired outside of warranty, but it will also be a "black mark" on the engine and will definitely effect the value of and demand for our cars--how can it not?Click here to enlarge
        I have a sneaking suspicion this will not get nearly as much attention as the N54 HPFP. Although potentially a more serious problem.

        Just look at the fact how many owners where unaware of this until they read this class action suit. This problem just isn't as well documented.

        Unless owners come out of woodwork joining Mr Chan.
      1. LZH's Avatar
        LZH -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by M3_WC Click here to enlarge
        I have a sneaking suspicion this will not get nearly as much attention as the N54 HPFP. Although potentially a more serious problem.

        Just look at the fact how many owners where unaware of this until they read this class action suit. This problem just isn't as well documented.

        Unless owners come out of woodwork joining Mr Chan.
        Do we know if Mr Chan's car was modified ?? I think that is a major part of this discussion that has yet to be addressed.
      1. Yomama69's Avatar
        Yomama69 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LZH Click here to enlarge
        Yeah, your clients are well represented while you bill them for your time here LOL. Anyway...I'll try to not get off topic here. Your missing my point. I don't know MHP's intent or internal business practices but I can draw conclusions on my own. They've said they are having problems with aftermarket cams - linked above so that is fact. They have also have apparently seen this OEM cam/lifter/bucket problem firsthand. So if that is the case, would it not make sense to scrap the idea of an aftermarket cam that they can't get to work, and just grind the OEM cam in the same harder material that they tried to make the aftermarket cam out of?? Seems pretty logical to me if they did in fact know about the problem and have seen it in 4 cars firsthand as Barfly said. I'm surprised no one else picked up on this...
        I'll wait for Andy to comment on that instead of speculating. Just because something makes sense does not make it feasible. It makes sense that MB would have replaced the cams in a recall. It's not economically feasible to do so.
      1. MHP LLC's Avatar
        MHP LLC -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LZH Click here to enlarge
        First of all the MHP cams for the M156 they have been developing are modified from the OEM cams. Andy has stated here that they have run into a bunch of problems running modified cams that cannot be fixed with ECU tuning. Unlike you, I like to back up what I say with proof - so here's the link to Andy discussing their cams:
        Luke, please comment only on things which you know to be fact. Our cams share NOTHING with the OEM crap sticks. We use billet 9310 rod, DLC coated, rifle drilled our cams are far more precise and accurate than stock sticks.

        The software issues we have as far as tuning just go to show how limited we are using the factory ecu. We are working with HWA to resolve the issue however on our end we are grinding physically smaller cams (mechanically speaking present cams are fine and work, just can't tune for them) to help find a solution as quickly as possible.

        That said a potential fix for the M156 cam issue would be to use our cams or similarly hard/ground cams as replacements, just ground to stock specs. This is not something we plan on offering as there are no performance gains, just stating facts.

        But that begs the question!!!!!! If MHP and Barfly KNEW ABOUT THE PROBLEM - then why are they continuing to make aftermarket sticks for the M156?!?!?!?!? Wouldn't it make more sense to tell everyone about what a HUGE problem there is with the M156, take photos, document everything and then say - BUT WAIT!!!! Hope is not lost !!!!! We at MHP have the answer and we are currently offering 9310 grade steel cams ground to EXACT OEM specs made out of the same material as the OEM lifters and buckets so you can rest easy and know your precious M156 motor will keep running strong for years to come as long as you buy our cams.

        LOL - seems to me that if anyone knew about this epidemic long ago, they would have made the cams and made a killing selling them to all you people on here now who are buying this garbage.
        Luke your head is so far up your ass it's amazing you can still type. Honestly in over 15 years on the net dealing with the most mundane of the mundane, and idiotic of the idiotic you rank in the top 5 consistently.

        We will not make stock replacement cams to remedy this issue. We will continue to work on cams that gain performance however they will not be targeted at resolving the issue. It's MBs job, not ours, to fix their own problem

        So do not put words in my mouth by making false statements like that. As a sponsor that pisses me off. You have as much of a clue what goes on around MHP as a gnat in Bora Bora, remember that before responding.

        The fact is I have been in contact with present, future and past customers about the issue (including Jim/Cart) and have been saying the same facts over and over again for over a year; nothing has changed, only the fact that you've noticed the issue.

        Don't be naive and think this suit is going to increase business, if anything I've lost a few sales this week to those that are now afraid to mod. The bottom line however is this. MB does not have the right to void warranty for the cam issue for any software or hardware modification the aftermarket makes. No tune, set of headers, exhaust or even blower can cause this damage period. My advice is to M156 owners, is that you are now safer modding (due to this suit making the public aware and not letting MB and their dealer network pull the wool over customers eyes) than you were previously.

        The one thing you are right about is that ignorance is bliss, you just don't see the irony no matter how thick it is. You've never seen a M156 apart, never held a scored cam in your hand, etc etc etc. You know nothing, so stop acting like you're a player and go into lurk mode where you cannot pass of misinformation.

        I'm truly sick of your BS, you've proven time and time how little you truly know about these or any cars. If you want me to keep down this path until you are 6 feet deep on the net I'll be glad to highlight your ignorance in depth.

        Otherwise don't make claims on my behalf nor speak of my products of which you know NOTHING about.

        Understand?


        Thanks
      1. Yomama69's Avatar
        Yomama69 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LZH Click here to enlarge
        Do we know if Mr Chan's car was modified ?? I think that is a major part of this discussion that has yet to be addressed.
        No way to know, but as already stated in this thread (I think by Andy), a modification would not contribute to the defect. It's a defect regardless.


        And just restated.
      1. MHP LLC's Avatar
        MHP LLC -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LZH Click here to enlarge
        Yeah, your clients are well represented while you bill them for your time here LOL. Anyway...I'll try to not get off topic here. Your missing my point. I don't know MHP's intent or internal business practices but I can draw conclusions on my own. They've said they are having problems with aftermarket cams - linked above so that is fact. They have also have apparently seen this OEM cam/lifter/bucket problem firsthand. So if that is the case, would it not make sense to scrap the idea of an aftermarket cam that they can't get to work, and just grind the OEM cam in the same harder material that they tried to make the aftermarket cam out of?? Seems pretty logical to me if they did in fact know about the problem and have seen it in 4 cars firsthand as Barfly said. I'm surprised no one else picked up on this...
        Again not our problem to fix and we will never regrind our cams with stock specs outside sanctioned racing. Doing so would simply not be cost effective for anyone involved. MB is much better off fixing the solution on their own than by going our route.

        I think that 9/11 conspiracy 2hr special is on discovery again tonight fyi...
      1. LZH's Avatar
        LZH -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by MHP LLC Click here to enlarge
        Luke, please comment only on things which you know to be fact. Our cams share NOTHING with the OEM crap sticks. We use billet 9310 rod, DLC coated, rifle drilled our cams are far more precise and accurate than stock sticks.

        The software issues we have as far as tuning just go to show how limited we are using the factory ecu. We are working with HWA to resolve the issue however on our end we are grinding physically smaller cams (mechanically speaking present cams are fine and work, just can't tune for them) to help find a solution as quickly as possible.

        That said a potential fix for the M156 cam issue would be to use our cams or similarly hard/ground cams as replacements, just ground to stock specs. This is not something we plan on offering as there are no performance gains, just stating facts.



        Luke your head is so far up your ass it's amazing you can still type. Honestly in over 15 years on the net dealing with the most mundane of the mundane, and idiotic of the idiotic you rank in the top 5 consistently.

        We will not make stock replacement cams to remedy this issue. We will continue to work on cams that gain performance however they will not be targeted at resolving the issue. It's MBs job, not ours, to fix their own problem

        So do not put words in my mouth by making false statements like that. As a sponsor that pisses me off. You have as much of a clue what goes on around MHP as a gnat in Bora Bora, remember that before responding.

        The fact is I have been in contact with present, future and past customers about the issue (including Jim/Cart) and have been saying the same facts over and over again for over a year; nothing has changed, only the fact that you've noticed the issue.

        Don't be naive and think this suit is going to increase business, if anything I've lost a few sales this week to those that are now afraid to mod. The bottom line however is this. MB does not have the right to void warranty for the cam issue for any software or hardware modification the aftermarket makes. No tune, set of headers, exhaust or even blower can cause this damage period. My advice is to M156 owners, is that you are now safer modding (due to this suit making the public aware and not letting MB and their dealer network pull the wool over customers eyes) than you were previously.

        The one thing you are right about is that ignorance is bliss, you just don't see the irony no matter how thick it is. You've never seen a M156 apart, never held a scored cam in your hand, etc etc etc. You know nothing, so stop acting like you're a player and go into lurk mode where you cannot pass of misinformation.

        I'm truly sick of your BS, you've proven time and time how little you truly know about these or any cars. If you want me to keep down this path until you are 6 feet deep on the net I'll be glad to highlight your ignorance in depth.

        Otherwise don't make claims on my behalf nor speak of my products of which you know NOTHING about.

        Understand?


        Thanks
        Andy - I really don't care what pisses you off or makes you happy. Assuming otherwise would be a mistake on your part. And I am not naive at all...seems though that you are, and it's only a matter of time until tuners like you are out of business. Let me ask you a question. Would you rather have the records for fastest or lots of cash? You can't have both so which would it be ? You claim to have so much technological knowledge of the M156 and have also claimed to have known about this problem for a while now. A problem that affects ALL M156 cars. Yet, you say it's AMG's problem and you have no intent on offering a fix...it's not your problem, blah blah blah...that strikes me as odd that you have identified a major defect and could easily grind a replacement stock cam and market the crap out of it - but you chose not to. All that tells me is that the problem really isn't a problem otherwise you would have been all over the idea of making a buck off it. Or perhaps your business acumen isn't that great. Either way I really don't give a sh!t and will carry on down the road.