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    • Class action suit against Daimler AG / Mercedes due to M156 V8 (63 AMG) engine defects

      A class action suit is being brought against Mercedes / Daimler AG due to alleged defects in the M156 V8 motor. The suit states that these defects are due to premature wear. The premature wear taking place as a result of the material used in the camshafts. The camshafts used are made of cast nodular iron. The valve lifters used however are made of 9310 grade steel. In the official complaint it is stated that the combination of these metals as designed is contributing to premature wear of the M156 motors. This can be due to improper heat treating of the metals or improper offset. The main sticking point is that Mercedes and AMG have known about this since 2007 when service bulletin S-B 05.20/20b was released. We will keep you updated on the details as this goes forward.




































      This article was originally published in forum thread: Class action suit against Daimler AG / Mercedes due to M156 V8 (63 AMG) engine defects started by Sticky View original post
      Comments 842 Comments
      1. Yomama69's Avatar
        Yomama69 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by justthebest Click here to enlarge
        SO MUCH BULLS#IT IN THIS THREAD.



        First off, props for that handle.
        Thanks. I've been using it on the net for 15 years. I never changed it, because it's an identifier just as my given name is.
      1. LZH's Avatar
        LZH -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Barfly Click here to enlarge
        As posted the M156 has major design flaws, enough so that MB took power away from AMG to go clean-sheet with the M157 and brought R&D back in-house again.

        The major flaws are:

        1) Chilled nodular iron cams used in conjunction with 9310 (diff gear steel) buckets. The cams don't stand a chance when the buckets don't spin, they have to gall.

        2) Buckets that are too flat in design, they need to be more convex so when the lobe strikes offset the centerline the energy is dissipated via the bucket spinning. If the bucket doesn't spin, instant cam galling.

        Ultimately the M156 needs cams ground of a harder material and redesigned buckets. This won't happen because after the 2012 MY C63 the M156 will be replaced across the board with the M157 (yes the MY 2013 C63 gets the M157 while the BS sticks with the M156) in short time.

        Insiders at MB have noted that MB will auto deny any warranty claims relating to the premature wearing of valvetrain components if the car is modded in any way shape or form. Yes this is a direct violation of the MM act but just a heads up. No measure of bad tuning, exhaust parts, or even a supercharger can cause the defects spoken about in this post.

        Yes, I have personally seen 4 effected M156 motors the youngest of which was an '08 CLK BS with 4k miles on it, the worst of them had the most miles to date and was a 9k mile 2009. I would hate to see the wear after 30, 50, 70k miles.

        Although not all engines are effected the amount that are is greater than most think, most are in fact stock vehicles and of course most AMG owners don't actually post on the internet. I'm sure we will see many names added to the plaintiff's list in the near future as more and more people hear about the suit via sites like this.

        Best of luck to the attorneys, they are fighting MB and AMG for the consumer, and also apparently standing up for those that didn't even know they needed it.

        If you have seen 4 motors with this problem, a black series nonetheless, as well as know about this problem for so long - why are you only NOW posting about it ?? Seems to me this is big news for every M156 owner yet you seemed to have known about it for a long time but said nothing ?? Odd...

        It's been posted here that changes were made to the M156 to correct this problem - can anyone confirm or deny that ? Also, the shop foreman at my local dealer told me that the ticking noise owners were complaining about was the lifters not getting enough oil pressure at cold startup and the ticking went away as the oil warmed and pressure built - so was this a lie when in fact he really knew the problem was the cams wearing???
      1. Yomama69's Avatar
        Yomama69 -
        These are not the first posts....just the first one's some of y'all have seen.

        Get the $#@! over the "If I didn't know about it, it can't be true" attitude.
      1. LZH's Avatar
      1. LZH's Avatar
        LZH -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Yomama69 Click here to enlarge
        These are not the first posts....just the first one's some of y'all have seen.

        Get the $#@! over the "If I didn't know about it, it can't be true" attitude.
        Calm down dude...I've seen the numerous posts about people complaining about the ticking noise as I referenced above - I have never seen a post in any forum where people are discussing the fact that it is an engine design flaw with the cams and the buckets being the problem and AMG knows/knew about it. Please point me to where that specifically has been discussed before this thread was started.
      1. b.wayne's Avatar
        b.wayne -
        Not trying to debate anyone here, but if we piece together the facts,

        1) Engine Ticking is a result of cams and bucket issue...
        1) A car with higher mileage is more than likely to have this issue then, especially since it was identified in motors with as little as 4k mi.
        3) My motor has 30,000mi. I am hearing no ticking.

        so what does this mean?

        I guess the only way to really find out is to rip out the head and have a look for ourselves. If excessive wear is present, then there should be more cause for concern.

        MHP, Weistec, Evosport, etc , do you guys have any pictures of customer cars with this type of excessive wear? I imagine someone that has seen this first hand must have documented this.

        Thanks in advance.
      1. P31-C63's Avatar
        P31-C63 -
        curious to see if and how this will effect the value of cars with the M156 motor.
        if this lawsuit comes out in favor of the plaintiff(s) then it will be a good thing for getting our cars repaired outside of warranty, but it will also be a "black mark" on the engine and will definitely effect the value of and demand for our cars--how can it not?Click here to enlarge

        I think this is where some of the animosity is coming from with some M156 owners--they know their car just lost more value.Click here to enlarge

        I can say for sure that any thoughts I had on keeping this car longterm has been drastically lessened!
        I cringe at the thought of my dealer changing the oil in my car, how am I'm going to feel when the engine "goes under the knife."
        I know I'm not the only one to feel this way about dealers--aarrgh, dare I say I might look at the next M5 (after the first year, of course!)
        Damn it AMG, I guess nothing is perfect, you had me going for a while!!Click here to enlarge
      1. P31-C63's Avatar
        P31-C63 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by b.wayne Click here to enlarge
        Not trying to debate anyone here, but if we piece together the facts,

        1) Engine Ticking is a result of cams and bucket issue...
        1) A car with higher mileage is more than likely to have this issue then, especially since it was identified in motors with as little as 4k mi.
        3) My motor has 30,000mi. I am hearing no ticking.

        so what does this mean?


        I guess the only way to really find out is to rip out the head and have a look for ourselves. If excessive wear is present, then there should be more cause for concern.

        MHP, Weistec, Evosport, etc , do you guys have any pictures of customer cars with this type of excessive wear? I imagine someone that has seen this first hand must have documented this.

        Thanks in advance.
        it means you need a hearing aid or pay better attention to the sounds coming from your engine bay (just bustin')Click here to enlarge
        I think almost everyone with a M156 has heard the ticking before, I know I have and I was told it was normal by countless others because that's what they were told by many others and MB themselves--BTW I have just over 4000 miles on mine--$#@!, now I really won't want to drive it, my wife already calls it an expensive paper weightClick here to enlarge
      1. LZH's Avatar
        LZH -
        I find it very odd that people are coming out of the woodwork now and jumping on the internet bandwagon saying, "Oh I've know about this problem for a while now". Really ??? I've seen countless threads with people complaining and nit picking about everything possibly imaginable regarding AMG's - and now, out of the blue when this lawsuit gets filed, we have a group of members who claim to have known about the problem (which if it's true is a very serious problem) and have seen it firsthand...yet never said a word about it ?????? I'm not buying it one bit. I'm not saying the problem doesn't exist, maybe it does....what I am saying though is that I know for a fact that if anyone posting in this thread knew about the problem, they would have said something LONG BEFORE this lawsuit was filed and posted here.
      1. P31-C63's Avatar
        P31-C63 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LZH Click here to enlarge
        Calm down dude...I've seen the numerous posts about people complaining about the ticking noise as I referenced above - I have never seen a post in any forum where people are discussing the fact that it is an engine design flaw with the cams and the buckets being the problem and AMG knows/knew about it. Please point me to where that specifically has been discussed before this thread was started.
        dare I say I agree with LZH? I've never read anything about this specific problem outlined this way--ticking, of course, but that's about it--$#@!, I thought I've read everything about this engine by now!! God knows, not much gets by you LZH!!
      1. Yomama69's Avatar
        Yomama69 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LZH Click here to enlarge
        I find it very odd that people are coming out of the woodwork now and jumping on the internet bandwagon saying, "Oh I've know about this problem for a while now". Really ??? I've seen countless threads with people complaining and nit picking about everything possibly imaginable regarding AMG's - and now, out of the blue when this lawsuit gets filed, we have a group of members who claim to have known about the problem (which if it's true is a very serious problem) and have seen it firsthand...yet never said a word about it ?????? I'm not buying it one bit. I'm not saying the problem doesn't exist, maybe it does....what I am saying though is that I know for a fact that if anyone posting in this thread knew about the problem, they would have said something LONG BEFORE this lawsuit was filed and posted here.
        Some did. Your searching skills has a touch of downs.
      1. Yomama69's Avatar
        Yomama69 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by P31-C63 Click here to enlarge
        curious to see if and how this will effect the value of cars with the M156 motor.
        if this lawsuit comes out in favor of the plaintiff(s) then it will be a good thing for getting our cars repaired outside of warranty, but it will also be a "black mark" on the engine and will definitely effect the value of and demand for our cars--how can it not?Click here to enlarge
        That's exactly correct. Cars with defects lose value. We've seen this recently in the N54 vehicles as well as others in the past. That's part of what the lawsuit will try to address.
      1. Itsbrokeagain's Avatar
        Itsbrokeagain -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by M3_WC Click here to enlarge
        Not saying they are? Just addressing a statement made earlier in the thread. A lot of owners are f*cking retarded, they either don't care or are too lazy to take their car in for service.
        bingo on this one...they are stupid lazy most of the time and dont want to pay. I mentioned it once before here, but I had a customer at Benz once that seized his original 273 engine. 30k miles and no oil change..EVER. It locked up, and he blew the starter trying to crank it over and over and over. Original complaint was that it would not start. So I pulled the starter (which smelled like death and had electrical goo oozing out of it) and tried to crank the engine over by hand with a 1/2 breaker bar and socket..it wouldnt budge! I pulled the drain plug, no oil came out..NONE. checked under the oil cap and it was sludge to high heaven. We pulled the oil filter out and it was packed solid full of sludge..looked like I was pulling a brown log out of the engine...not to mention it was the ORIGINAL factory oil filter Benz puts in from the factory...its a cotton type filter instead of paper, this is how they can tell if someone is improperly maintaining it. This guy worked for Benz, his company makes the TV advertisements. Apparently he thought he was above the law and was just having his oil service light reset at Wondorama, which he knows the owner and wasnt having bull$#@! done do the car....pulled up h is service record and he denies everything needed to the car (brakes, service, etc), yet the car is run ragged and never had $#@! done. He pulled the 'I guess you guys dont know who I am but blah blah blah' trying to get us to Warranty it for him. NA came on down, said $#@! you and pay for the labor to replace the engine..which was still some $10k...LOL The engine only cost some $7k I think, basic long block that I had to transfer everything to. This is only a rare occurrence, Im not saying all 63 owners act like this, but there are some who refuse to do jack$#@! to their cars.
      1. Barfly's Avatar
        Barfly -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LZH Click here to enlarge
        If you have seen 4 motors with this problem, a black series nonetheless, as well as know about this problem for so long - why are you only NOW posting about it ?? Seems to me this is big news for every M156 owner yet you seemed to have known about it for a long time but said nothing ?? Odd...
        No as has been posted this exact issue with exact problems has been cited many times on the net in the past 1.5 years or more. I was one of the people talking about it then and still am now. It's on MBW and this site. Has been and isn't going anywhere, you just have to look. No one gave much credence to it then, but all eyes are now on the big picture. Can't help people's lack of perception sorry.

        It's been posted here that changes were made to the M156 to correct this problem - can anyone confirm or deny that ? Also, the shop foreman at my local dealer told me that the ticking noise owners were complaining about was the lifters not getting enough oil pressure at cold startup and the ticking went away as the oil warmed and pressure built - so was this a lie when in fact he really knew the problem was the cams wearing???
        Yes MB made 4 revisions to cylinder heads for the M156 and even stopped selling new castings as spares while doing so. Sadly none of their "redesigns" fixed anything. Same cams, Same buckets.

        You may hear ticking upon initial start up which may or may not be attributable to the lifters not being pumped up, however that's not to say it's not the cams making the noise either.

        This is one of those defects that will sneak up and bite you on the ass, catering more to those with higher mileage (more chance for wear). It's not something you will notice one day but not the next.
      1. LZH's Avatar
        LZH -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Yomama69 Click here to enlarge
        Some did. Your searching skills has a touch of downs.
        Well since your searching skills are so superior...the for the second time, POST A LINK and give the backhanded d!ckhead comments a rest.
      1. JRCART's Avatar
        JRCART -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LZH Click here to enlarge
        I find it very odd that people are coming out of the woodwork now and jumping on the internet bandwagon saying, "Oh I've know about this problem for a while now". Really ??? I've seen countless threads with people complaining and nit picking about everything possibly imaginable regarding AMG's - and now, out of the blue when this lawsuit gets filed, we have a group of members who claim to have known about the problem (which if it's true is a very serious problem) and have seen it firsthand...yet never said a word about it ?????? I'm not buying it one bit. I'm not saying the problem doesn't exist, maybe it does....what I am saying though is that I know for a fact that if anyone posting in this thread knew about the problem, they would have said something LONG BEFORE this lawsuit was filed and posted here.
        I have been making this very same point for ywo days now...This motor has been avialble and in the publics hands since August of 2006 and placed into 20-30k AMG 63's in the past 5 plus years and nobody mentions it on the 3 largest MB forums now one guy files a suit and it's an overnight epidemic? There are MB techs that participate on these boards, there are MB sales people that participate on these boards, I would like to think that something would have been mentioned before now f this is such an epidemic plaguing so many 63 vehicles. I am not saying it might not be the case, but I just can't believe it's blown up to the propotions some people are making it out to be. I am one of the few people on these boards that has actually seen my engine with the heads and cams removed, I specifically remember looking at my cams when my car was still back at evosport and I did not see any signs of excesive cam lobe wear, as a matter of fact my SLS cams where sitting right next to them and I could not even tell which was which, the stockers looked new. I guess what I am saying is that in this day and age with the internet available on every cell phone and a zillion forums out there pertaiing to a zillion topics that if this issue would have been mentioned earlier I would think.

        That being said there are some arguements being made that I can see being valid, but I am still sticking to my gut that this is not an issue that should be considered epidemic.
      1. Barfly's Avatar
        Barfly -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by P31-C63 Click here to enlarge
        dare I say I agree with LZH? I've never read anything about this specific problem outlined this way--ticking, of course, but that's about it--$#@!, I thought I've read everything about this engine by now!! God knows, not much gets by you LZH!!
        It's out there, dated and all, you just have to search for it.
      1. Barfly's Avatar
        Barfly -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JRCART Click here to enlarge
        I have been making this very same point for ywo days now...This motor has been avialble and in the publics hands since August of 2006 and placed into 20-30k AMG 63's in the past 5 plus years and nobody mentions it on the 3 largest MB forums now one guy files a suit and it's an overnight epidemic? There are MB techs that participate on these boards, there are MB sales people that participate on these boards, I would like to think that something would have been mentioned before now f this is such an epidemic plaguing so many 63 vehicles. I am not saying it might not be the case, but I just can't believe it's blown up to the propotions some people are making it out to be. I am one of the few people on these boards that has actually seen my engine with the heads and cams removed, I specifically remember looking at my cams when my car was still back at evosport and I did not see any signs of excesive cam lobe wear, as a matter of fact my SLS cams where sitting right next to them and I could not even tell which was which, the stockers looked new. I guess what I am saying is that in this day and age with the internet available on every cell phone and a zillion forums out there pertaiing to a zillion topics that if this issue would have been mentioned earlier I would think.

        That being said there are some arguements being made that I can see being valid, but I am still sticking to my gut that this is not an issue that should be considered epidemic.
        Consider this as well. The average MB let alone AMG owner doesn't know how to change his own oil. You think they're going to pick up on something as major as this that shows only minor signs (which can and have been blamed on other things conveniently by dealers and MB) until the engine is no longer drivable?

        My math says no.

        Some cars show wear, others (especially with lower miles) don't. If you're buckets are spinning, good for you and enjoy the performance because that's how it should be. On the other hand if they aren't, well, MB stabbed those customers in the back. This suit prevents that backstabbing and will also let current M156 owners mod freely knowing their mods which literally cannot physically cause these issues cannot be used against them if D-day should come in the future.

        It's a win win for M156 owners, even if you don't have the issue now, if you do develop it in time you are covered.
      1. LZH's Avatar
        LZH -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Barfly Click here to enlarge
        It's out there, dated and all, you just have to search for it.
        If it's out there, I can't find it. Would you mind posting a link????
      1. Yomama69's Avatar
        Yomama69 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LZH Click here to enlarge
        Well since your searching skills are so superior...the for the second time, POST A LINK and give the backhanded d!ckhead comments a rest.
        Go on mbw and search "engine noise". I don't have time to look your $#@! up for you right now. I'll keep the backhanded comments as long as they're warranted. If you act like an $#@!, you'll be treated like an $#@!.