Close

    • BenzBoost interview with Weistec Engineering C63/M156 Torque limiter issues, CARB certification, Pricing, etc.

      This is Part III of the BenzBoost visit to Weistec. Part I and Part II are available here and here respectively. This interview has been edited a bit from its original form to make it easier to understand in written form. We covered avariety of topics including the ever popular torque limiter questions, transmission limits, CARB certification, and pricing among others. Questions that forum members wrote they wanted answered were asked. Enjoy!







      Interview participants:

      R - Director of Sales

      Steve Atneyel - Director of Operations

      Michael Weiss - Technical Director and Mechanical Engineer


      BenzBoost: We are just going to start with the basics. First tell everybody who you are and what you do. Basically, where Weistec came from and who Weistec is.


      Steve: My name is Steve Atneyel, one ofthe owners of Weistec Engineering. Weistec started about a year and a half ago. We started doing development; we being myself and Michael Weiss my partner. We are an engineering firm specializing in calibration and design. This particular project is one of many we will probably do.


      BenzBoost: What is the pricing on the kits?


      Steve: MSRP is $15,000. We also have a dealer network.


      BenzBoost: That is Stage I?


      Steve: Stage I and Stage I plus.


      BenzBoost: And Stage 2 would be?


      Mike: It's not set in stone yet. For select customers we have done a limited release on it. But really soon we will have a full release.


      BB: I know you don't have the full price, but do you expect it to be much more expensive?


      Steve: It's going to be an additional price on top of the Stage I. We are thinking somewhere under $3000.


      BB: Reasonable.


      Mike: If you buy a Stage I with a StageII upgrade you will receive a small discount.


      BB: How does the Stage II differ? Justhigher boost?


      Steve: It's more boost. Fuel system upgrade including injectors. Cog upgrade, spark plugs, and thetuning.


      BB: You said you sold them worldwide so obviously exporting the kits is a possibility. I already saw the fitment, but if you could go over the fitment, and is it a do it yourself? Can someone actually buy this and do it themselves in their garage or does it need to be an approved installer?


      Steve: You would need the mechanical ability but I think it is pretty straightforward. The instruction manual is very straightforward there are a lot of pictures. Our warranty requires a certified technician; we have many qualified dealers that customers can turn to for purchase and installation.


      BB: So export all over the world, if I'm anywhere you will get the kit to me?


      S: Qatar, Taiwan, Japan, China, Russia, Germany, Finland, South Africa, it's everywhere.


      BB: Someone on the forum wanted this clarified, are the blower screws made by Lysholm?


      S: Yes.


      BB: There we go.


      BB: Another question asked on the forums was, do you do your own track testing? Do you have mile times, 60-130, or maybe some road course times?


      S: The only thing we truly don't have numbers for is road-course.


      BB: Those are very driver dependent.


      S: There are thousands of variables butwe have done track testing and we have done 60-130. We have done all that. Honestly, the best thing is a third party. It just holds so much more water.


      BB: Agree 100%. How close are you to receiving the CARB certification? That is very difficult to get so how are you able to do it?


      S: We have done CARB testing for many companies. I'm sure you read the forums, we've done it many times before and we are close to completion.


      BB: CARB is going to make this kit extremely appealing. If I would have known this kit was coming with CARB certification I might be in a Benz instead of a BMW.


      S: I think you should get into one.


      BB: Haha, we'll see. I could use one.


      R: Alot of the experience here is in certifying vehicles especially Steve, approving vehicles for manufacturers.


      S: As we are an engineering firm, we market this product as our own, but we do a lot of private label work for other companies. An example of the things we have done in the past is certifying compressed natural gas. Full certification, full calibration, and the full engineering that Michael does. The M156 supercharger is just one of the things we do so our limitations are not just this.


      BB: Let me ask you this, you areobviously really focused on this [M156] but what is the long term picture?


      S: The long term picture is to sellmore of these. Part of the reason why we want a CARB certification and why we are relentlessly working on that is because we have a lot of dealer interest. Dealerships in California, and even New York,Texas, they really want certifications. They cant legally put it on the car without certifications.


      BB: Do you have any relationships withdealers right now?


      S: Yes, we do. They are waiting on that [CARB].


      BB: California dealers?


      S: California, New York like I said, Ohio.


      BB: Before I get in to some of the other question, let me ask you about the tuning, who does the tuning?


      S: I do.


      BB: Your background in tuning is...what?


      S: Tuning a lot of OEM. A lot of standalone. It started off like everyone else as a hobby but then it got more professional doing it for large companies, certifying big companies.


      BB: What companies?


      S: I can't disclose. You know the example of one of them, they say it on the forum.


      BB: You also offer MHP tuning as an option, why was that done or what is the benefit of that?


      R: We figured why not work together and supply him with superchargers and he can create his own tunes that he can package with his products. We do our own tuning in house for any stage. Andy is one of the authorized dealers to create his own tuning if he likes.


      BB: The natural progression will be the bolt on's, do the naturally aspirated tuning, and then if you want more power you move to you basically. So if the products are on there it is sort of a natural step.


      BB: Here are some of the more difficult questions, nobody get offended, please. Jim's car, the highest dyno that has been posted up until this point was 640 wheel horsepower at a claimed 14.5 psi. That is the one that Jim claimed was spinning on the dyno. How were the tires spinning on the dyno? Because, when you look at the way the power is ramping in it has traction and then it loses it up top. Once it already has traction, and the way the boost comes on, it is not like it is a sudden surge later on. It is always the same boost from beginning to end. Why was it spinning on the dyno and is it more likely it was a torque limiter issue?


      S: Well we had the Dymags on the car and those things are extremely...


      BB: Light?


      S: It's not the lightweight thing.


      M: I think a carbon fiber wheel at a high rpm produces a resonance that with high power and the way it is strapped on the dyno causes traction issues. We have a video, I have to dig it up, but two guys are sitting in the trunk. You can see smoke coming from the tires.


      BB: Would I be able to get this video?


      M: I have to see if we still have it.


      BB: There was a lot of speculation about torque limiter issues and I think you know where it comes from; let's get into that. Is the transmission an issue? Are the torque limiters an issue?


      S: Let me explain this so people can understand this as well as yourself. When you are spraying nitrous in a motor, however you inject it, the computer does not realize the extra air is entering the motor; even when sprayed dry in front ofthe MAF. The concentrated oxygen that is chemically bonded along with nitrogen does not influence the MAF the same way air does. So with nitrous everything happens in the cylinder. The MAF doesn't read that stream of air coming in. So it is thinking X amount of torque is coming in due to the air going past the MAF. It is not working the transmission properly. That is the basis of how the transmission works. It reads torque through the MAF.


      M: It's not prepared for the power thatit is going to be making. The engine is making the torque but thesensors aren't letting the tranny know that it is actually going tobe making that power.


      BB: So then how do you let the tranny know it is making that power?


      S: With our supercharger, as you are making boost, the mass airflow meter is seeing 100% of that air because the supercharger is sucking through it. We are not hitting any torque limiters because the motor is actually seeing the torque being made. Whereas, a nitrous car it physically doesn't, the sensors don't see the torque being made. We also calibrate the computer to take a more proactive approach to the extra torque that is beingmade.


      BB: So this is only an issue on nitrous cars?


      S: It will be an issue on nitrous cars.


      BB: So if someone gets a blower and they want to put nitrous on top of it, not a possibility?


      S: Depending on how you do it. Right now, I would not recommend it. It is an evolving thing. The way you would have to do it won't work properly.


      BB: Has the transmission taken everything you have thrown it at it thus far?


      S: Everything.


      M: Not one transmission issue.


      BB: Nothing? No slipping, nothing?


      S: Nothing.


      BB: Is it possible to upgrade thetransmission?


      S: I am sure it will be.


      BB: But not yet?


      S: Not yet.


      BB: With the Stage III's do you think you will run into problems with the transmission?


      S: We are not sure.


      BB: Too early to tell?


      S: Too early to tell. I would say this. Anything we have done, even with Jim's car, which makes high 600 and more to the tires, which we have done, no issues yet.


      BB: After that 640 whp dyno that tailed off, which could have been higher, there was a 573 whp that was 10-11psi. Earl then said he made 551 whp at 5-6 psi. Why is there that discrepancy?


      M: The boost pressure, the car, everything was not correct that was posted.


      BB: On the 570?


      S: That 570 was put up by MHP. He wanted to see us making more power than the Stage 1 numbers that wereleased at that point. That was just the graph we had and we gave it to him.


      M: It was a preliminary Stage I plus on93 octane.


      S: Here is the thing though and I think we should be open about it. SLS cams drop boost.


      BB: Why?


      S: The duration is much more. The way the SLS works, the head design is very different. The CC on the chambers is less. The reason they might work on a blower car and that we even experimented with them is that they do drop cylinder pressure quite a bit. So you can get away with theoretically running a lot of boost on the stock high compression bottom end.


      M: We dyno'd a stock car with SLS camsover 6 months ago and knew this. We thought maybe we can pull tricks out of the bag and use this to make power differently on a stock bottom end.


      S: The reason I bring this up is because if you hear a boost number, some of these boost numbers say Jim's car, if you put stock cams back in Jim's car it would make 20pounds of boost with stock cams. Maybe even more.


      BB: You offer the supercharger for the regular C63, CLK63, etc., and the SLS, are the power the numbers the same for the SLS?


      S: No they are different. The SLS is basically our Stage 2 package right from the get go. It will come with a fuel system upgrade. It will come with different cogs and spark plugs.


      M: The amount of power that car deserves from the get go.


      S: We have not finished all the testing, which is why it is not 100% released. We are thinking somewhere around 700 crank though.


      BB: That is big. The SLS price thoughis much higher correct, what is it?


      S: $27,000.


      BB: Why is it such a large jump?


      R: Tooling.


      S: Yep. The most expensive part abou tthis. The lower manifold is a full cast aluminum piece, the Y is a cast aluminum piece, and all of this requires a serious amount of tooling and a serious amount of time and a serious amount of money.


      BB: I guess I'm just surprised. It is the same blower. It is the same motor almost and I'm just surprised it is almost a $15 grand jump.


      S: It is two extra cast pieces that weadd. So the tooling involved in that in relation to the quantity of SLS units we will sell.


      BB: Have you sold any SLS setups?


      S: We have pre-sold.


      R: Two of them.


      BB: But the SLS will have smaller numbers?


      S: What do you mean?


      BB: Smaller numbers sold?


      S: Oh yeah, exactly. It is just business at that point. That is why the price is different.


      Break after 20 minutes to go for a ride in Earl's car, then we returned to complete the interview.


      BB: We discussed this when we went for a ride in the car but we'll do it again sort of. A lot of people are asking questions about when you went to the track and the pulley gave out. Now the design has changed, would you mind explaining that?


      S: We knew that at high boost obviously there is way more load on the belt. On Jim's car we added our auxiliary belt wrap kit. What was happening was it was putting so much pressure on the rest of the system and that is when the pulley gave out. From that, we went with a full billet idler set for the whole drive system. Not only are we now including it with our high boost applications, every kit gets that now. It is standard.


      M: Preventive maintenance.


      S: We don't want to deal with the potential issues. The solution was just to include it for everybody. The problem with Jim's car was adding the auxiliary belt wrap kit and putting so much pressure on a plastic pulley and breaking it over and over again. It happened twice at the track.


      M: It happened once before that but they already flew out here from Chicago and wanted to see the car go down the track.


      BB: Was there a clean pass?


      S: Not really. The cleanest one was that video, I'm sure you have seen it. He had the car in manual mode as that is what he was used to from the nitrous days and tranny issues that they faced with it.


      BB: Some people have asked this, the nitrous was removed?


      S: Oh ya, the bottle...


      BB: I saw where the bottle is in the warehouse, you just know how people are saying maybe nitrous.


      S: Honestly, we removed the whole system just so there were no questions.


      M: There were a lot of people at the track specifically looking at the car for nitrous.


      S: They were in there with a magnifying glass looking at the car to make sure nothing was going on.


      BB: That is pretty much everything, anything you want to say?


      S: Only thing I want to say is, for people who want performance numbers mile, things like that, it will happen. It is a fairly new company, we are not 20 years old.


      BB: People live in an instant gratification world now. It is important to note this was not an overnight process.


      S: This was a hobby for us. It became an occupation but the Mercedes industry was a hobby.


      R: That is why we saw these cars needed to be supercharged and we were capable of producing a solution.


      BB: There was no solution. And there really isn't, other than you guys. Unless you guys know of something else?


      S: Nope.


      S: If you saw our first video. One of our first videos, world's first supercharged. That scanned data image was probably two years ago.


      BB: A lot of progress since then.


      S: It is.


      BB: I think that is going to be it gentlemen, I appreciate your time.
      This article was originally published in forum thread: BenzBoost interview with Weistec Engineering C63/M156 Torque limiter issues, CARB certification, Pricing, etc. started by Sticky View original post
      Comments 239 Comments
      1. Sonny's Avatar
        Sonny -
        Sounds good, Andy. Looking forward to seeing some of those pics and learning more in the process.

        It's hot down in SoCal right now and humid as well. It just zaps your energy. Probably a few hp from under the hood too.
      1. LZH's Avatar
        LZH -
        Here are assembly videos of the 722.9 transmission:

        #1:

        #2:
      1. LZH's Avatar
        LZH -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Barfly Click here to enlarge
        Check into the rear diff ratio of your car yet?
        Just got off the phone with the shop foreman at my dealer and after pulling up the ring and pinion gear the AMG description states the drive ratio as a 2:62 actually. So, consider yourself proven WRONG. And if your gonna play games and say I was too, then my only response was I was ALOT closer than you were Click here to enlarge
        I look forward to rubbing your face in a few videos of Jims car ripping thru the gears with 14.5 PSI in S mode. Have a SUPER weekend LOL
      1. Barfly's Avatar
        Barfly -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LZH Click here to enlarge
        Just got off the phone with the shop foreman at my dealer and after pulling up the ring and pinion gear the AMG description states the drive ratio as a 2:62 actually. So, consider yourself proven WRONG. And if your gonna play games and say I was too, then my only response was I was ALOT closer than you were Click here to enlarge
        I look forward to rubbing your face in a few videos of Jims car ripping thru the gears with 14.5 PSI in S mode. Have a SUPER weekend LOL
        lzh, you truly believe AMG saw fit to put the numerically lowest rear gear ratio in the sportiest 63 made at the time? Being that no other 63 runs less than 2.82 gearing you cant be serious?

        "Hey let's create a CLK Black Series and neuter it with $#@!ty E55 type gearing"... Make sense to you?

        Just another reason not to trust your dealer. Ask an AMG engineer or I'll do it for you.

        If that were true you could go 88mph in 2nd gear at 7000rpm. I already know thats impossible, sorry you dont.

        I look forward to the vids either way, just make sure the boost guage is legible and both hands are on the wheel and off the paddles and shifter during the runs. Is cart going to invite sticky to tape himself or will these be in-house vids?

        Have yourself a good weekend too and try to grow up a bit over the next 2 days.

        Thx
      1. Barfly's Avatar
        Barfly -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LZH Click here to enlarge
        Here are assembly videos of the 722.9 transmission:

        #1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGbmS5tXSq8

        #2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFgfHkK_FsY
        4 minutes and 42 seconds of final assembly and wiping the cover off does not show us much about the trans or what its strengths and weaknesses are sorry Freddie's trans in TX. I'll wait for MHPs post.
      1. LZH's Avatar
        LZH -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Barfly Click here to enlarge
        lzh, you truly believe AMG saw fit to put the numerically lowest rear gear ratio in the sportiest 63 made at the time? Being that no other 63 runs less than 2.82 gearing you cant be serious?

        "Hey let's create a CLK Black Series and neuter it with $#@!ty E55 type gearing"... Make sense to you?

        Just another reason not to trust your dealer. Ask an AMG engineer or I'll do it for you.

        If that were true you could go 88mph in 2nd gear at 7000rpm. I already know thats impossible, sorry you dont.

        I look forward to the vids either way, just make sure the boost guage is legible and both hands are on the wheel and off the paddles and shifter during the runs. Is cart going to invite sticky to tape himself or will these be in-house vids?

        Have yourself a good weekend too and try to grow up a bit over the next 2 days.

        Thx
        Then I guess I am right and it is a 2:82 as I originally said and what is published online by numerous sites. So prove me wrong and go over to the PL and find out. I really don't have the time or the inclination for this back and forth with you anymore. You really are a d!ckhead. Nothing pleases you except to hear yourself yap away...so have at it. Someone asks to see pics of the 722.9 and I post a video of it and it's not good enough for you. Guess what a$$hole, IT WASN'T MEANT FOR YOU.
        Honestly, I'm done with you and will not be responding to you anymore.
      1. propain's Avatar
        propain -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by MHP LLC Click here to enlarge
        What's up Jim! I'm thinking you're getting hit by this heat too?
        Yes!! I am counting the days and setting up my plan of attack for the fall. Good times ahead! Hope to catch you at some rentals this fall. This time come out for the steak dinner!
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by propain Click here to enlarge
        Don't be such a $#@! ass... Click here to enlarge With the latest interview you seem to fancy yourself a bit of a journalist. Get your ass to the track and document these results independently and not when they call you in with their best dress on and their makeup done!
        I might just do that but need to at least know the time this is taking place...
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Barfly Click here to enlarge
        If this was ecampbells car we were talking about I would respect his wishes, but cart has made claims and statements that he hasn't backed up before and after teh supercharger went on including claims directly contradicting Steve from weistec who as far as I know has never posted any mistruths. He says one thing privately and then another publicly. If everyone was honest there would be no need for any of this.
        Actually, he backed up everything when he did not even need to and has provided a good amount of info.

        If any claims were made contradicting Steve it is likely because he doesn't talk to him 24/7 and isn't near the car therefore just stated what he knew at the time.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Barfly Click here to enlarge
        Sticky are you going?
        I just need to know what time. From 8-2 I am busy with something though.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ecampbell Click here to enlarge
        Both Jim's car and mine are complete with kits which can be sold as is. Jim wants more and I want more which is what the R&D reference is to. Jim is racing this weekend and I am going to fly out to do run in Vegas on the 19th August and hopefully I can get him to show up for one hell of a piss up after the race.
        Just wanted to add, I will be there to document this for those craving videos/pictures/times etc.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by propain Click here to enlarge
        Its a shame level 1 and its gains weren't properly documented at the track before going back to the R&D stage and moving into stage 2 and 3.

        Hopefully we can also get a good idea of what the stage 1 can do at the track as well soon.
        Level 1 can still be documented properly before/after. Some people are just skipping Stage I entirely and going big like these two.

        Earl and Jim's cars are just different levels and doing different things.

        Weistec also prefers third party numbers so it will be up to owners to do it really.
      1. Barfly's Avatar
        Barfly -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LZH Click here to enlarge
        Then I guess I am right and it is a 2:82 as I originally said and what is published online by numerous sites. So prove me wrong and go over to the PL and find out. I really don't have the time or the inclination for this back and forth with you anymore. You really are a d!ckhead. Nothing pleases you except to hear yourself yap away...so have at it. Someone asks to see pics of the 722.9 and I post a video of it and it's not good enough for you. Guess what a$$hole, IT WASN'T MEANT FOR YOU.
        Honestly, I'm done with you and will not be responding to you anymore.
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sonny Click here to enlarge
        What's up, Andy. Click here to enlarge Sorry to hear the heat is that bad in OH.

        Great post above, btw.

        If you don't mind sharing, are there the same amount of clutches between every gear in the 722.9? I assume there are clutch(es) in between the converter and 1st gear? Maybe not?
        You were saying something about someone asking to see pics?

        Take a serious look in the mirror lzh, for someone that boasts about living the life you sure seem to have a lot of deep rooted anger issues.

        Your out is name calling, which is the calling card of a typical ethug. Not going there again with you not worth the time.

        I wouldnt still be posting in this thread if not for you and the ridiculous comments youve put out just nonsensical jibberish. He said she said, no facts to back anything you say. Always condescending and calling names from behind your keyboard.

        Look at this backpedal:

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by lzh post 164 Click here to enlarge
        Seems to me you're just pissed that Wiestec has apparently cracked the 722.9 TCU and you haven't.
        On a side note, like ive been working on it??? lol.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by lzh post 174 Click here to enlarge
        There is a way to connect via OBD II, it just takes the correct hardware to achieve it. Apparently that is what has been, or is bieng developed and tweaked.
        So Mr. know it all which is it cracked or are they still working on it?

        Conflicting statements again. First about not running lower boost and now this. Seems like youre getting your first hand news a day late and a dollar short. Good thing youre so wealthy.
      1. Barfly's Avatar
        Barfly -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Actually, he backed up everything when he did not even need to and has provided a good amount of info.

        If any claims were made contradicting Steve it is likely because he doesn't talk to him 24/7 and isn't near the car therefore just stated what he knew at the time.
        first thanks for going to the race if they let you. Counting on you for real video.

        if youve been following cart for just the last year you can see what I've posted about him not backing what he says is true. Yes he races so props for that but he's lied about his times for which there is no excuse, he never went 10s without a supercharger let alone repeated tens with video he declined to post even after he said he would. He was also caught red handed paddle shifting in manual from the last track outing saying it was in auto but you can clearly see him working the paddle this was followed up by Steve confirming this was in manual. Cart was driving so whats a legit excuse? I cant think of one. Otherwise i'm not sure what info he posted that we didnt already know from other threads and posts on this site like having multiple pulleys. Covered.

        Point being the proof is in someone being there taping and I hope its you. Since lzh is friends with cart he should be able to tell what time the race is right?

        Thx
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Barfly Click here to enlarge
        if youve been following cart for just the last year you can see what I've posted about him not backing what he says is true. Yes he races so props for that but he's lied about his times for which there is no excuse, he never went 10s without a supercharger let alone repeated tens with video he declined to post even after he said he would. He was also caught red handed paddle shifting in manual from the last track outing saying it was in auto but you can clearly see him working the paddle this was followed up by Steve confirming this was in manual. Cart was driving so whats a legit excuse? I cant think of one. Otherwise i'm not sure what info he posted that we didnt already know from other threads and posts on this site like having multiple pulleys. Covered.
        I was referring to Earl (ecampbell) not Jrcart.
      1. Itsbrokeagain's Avatar
        Itsbrokeagain -
        god all this bickering going on. It seems worse than the BMW guys.

        Who gives a hoot how it drove it down the track or what gearing he has. It goes fast, thats all I care about...isnt that what everyone should look at?
      1. Dodger63's Avatar
        Dodger63 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Matt@Camber-Toe Click here to enlarge
        god all this bickering going on. It seems worse than the BMW guys.

        Who gives a hoot how it drove it down the track or what gearing he has. It goes fast, thats all I care about...isnt that what everyone should look at?
        Are you saying that a 15,000 s/c kit shouldn't include prose shifting? As long as it's fast
      1. Itsbrokeagain's Avatar
        Itsbrokeagain -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Dodger63 Click here to enlarge
        Are you saying that a 15,000 s/c kit shouldn't include prose shifting? As long as it's fast
        It shifts fine now, does it not? Aside from what I had read about your heavy nitrous use affecting it, with straight supercharging at 11 or 14psi it shifts just fine, in auto or manual?
      1. Dodger63's Avatar
        Dodger63 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Matt@Camber-Toe Click here to enlarge
        It shifts fine now, does it not? Aside from what I had read about your heavy nitrous use affecting it, with straight supercharging at 11 or 14psi it shifts just fine, in auto or manual?
        My heavy nitrous use? What! I've never had bought driven a car ever with nitrous maybe someone else,

        Umm the lochness monster is real also just like the car shifting in sport mode with 15lbs of boost, Idk man I don't no if it shifts or not I just no there is not one documented by video or results?? I guess we all will mo in 24 hours
      1. Barfly's Avatar
        Barfly -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        I was referring to Earl (ecampbell) not Jrcart.
        My bad on that! I gave ecampbell props for what he's done and proven with his car. Hes the reason I say the stage 1 kits or base kits definitely work.