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    • OE Tuning / Gintani W204 C63 AMG vs. MBH / ASGC C63 AMG

      Always good to see these kind of comparison videos. We like real world, head to head, results. The camera car is a 2011 C63 AMG that has Gintani headers and OE Tuning Stage 2 ECU tune. The other C63 features MBH headers and an ASGC Stage 2 tune. Both cars are on 91 octane pump gas. There are several runs mostly from low speeds. The runs all have the OE Tuning car pulling quite hard. We aren't sure why the disparity is quite so large but great to see a real world comparison.




      This article was originally published in forum thread: OE Tuning / Gintani W204 C63 AMG vs. MBH / ASGC C63 AMG started by Sticky View original post
      Comments 52 Comments
      1. LZH's Avatar
        LZH -
        Well there you have it. But I really have no clue as to how driver skill comes to play in this situation...other than reaction time. HONK HONK HONK, mash throttle, steer straight. Any retard can do that.
      1. Dodger63's Avatar
        Dodger63 -
        Ok reaction time is part but I've seen guys in this car start a race I regular d and the car needs to down shift.. And some will put it in d and paddle down to the optimum gear and yet others will use m and down shift to much or not enough and then it won't down shift more and stay in that gear.. I mean there are pleanty of advantages, if they were both I s and paddled down to the lowest gear they could get then nailed the gas at close to the same car and that was the results so be it but as I said there's more to this story IMHO? Take it for what it's worth?
      1. fastgti69's Avatar
        fastgti69 -
        thats pretty damn sick. What a difference.
      1. LZH's Avatar
        LZH -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Dodger63 Click here to enlarge
        Ok reaction time is part but I've seen guys in this car start a race I regular d and the car needs to down shift.. And some will put it in d and paddle down to the optimum gear and yet others will use m and down shift to much or not enough and then it won't down shift more and stay in that gear.. I mean there are pleanty of advantages, if they were both I s and paddled down to the lowest gear they could get then nailed the gas at close to the same car and that was the results so be it but as I said there's more to this story IMHO? Take it for what it's worth?



        So shifting aside...sure, I'll give you that. But how hard is it to put it in auto S, select the right gear and let the tranny do the rest ? Maybe one time you forget, but over and over? Doubt it. I do agree with you tho, there is more to the story. Namely, Xtypers car is NOT dialed in.
      1. DD GT3 RD's Avatar
        DD GT3 RD -
        Replies from ACG and Xtyper


        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by James@ACGSD Click here to enlarge
        As for the video's in question, dont know when they we're done but Xtyper got reflashed from the dealer twice. So tomorrow will be the test. Stay tuned :p

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by xtyper Click here to enlarge
        Shoot, can't hide from Propain...that was indeed me vs Jeremy on some late night spirited Mexico runs. Click here to enlarge

        Yes, Jeremy is definitely a much better driver and did get the jump on quite a few runs, but he still pulled me up top every time no matter how even the start. I'd say he had me by an average of 2 cars on the even start 40-130 runs.

        That said, there was some question as to whether I had filled up with some bad gas or been dealer reflashed shortly before these runs, which is what prompted them in the first place. We figured that since our cars had put down similar numbers on his dyno, that that would be the true test of whether my car was really down on power. Given his better driving skills and slight mod advantage with the intake and catback race exhaust, I'm not sure the results were conclusive. I'm going down to ACGSD tomorrow for a full tune reflash and then maybe we can do a few more runs to eliminate that variable (although I doubt the results will change much).

        One thing's for sure, Jeremy's driving skills + Jeremy's OE Tune + Jeremy's car = MONSTER. There is no doubt in my mind that when he gets some decent weather and the chance to run again, the West Coast will put up some 10's.

        I'm definitely interested in having Jeremy tune my spare ECU when he has time to see how it compares to the ACGSD header matched tune.

        Hope to have some official comparison results in the near future, as I'm getting really tired of staring at Jeremy's rear license plate! :p:
      1. Dodger63's Avatar
        Dodger63 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LZH Click here to enlarge


        So shifting aside...sure, I'll give you that. But how hard is it to put it in auto S, select the right gear and let the tranny do the rest ? Maybe one time you forget, but over and over? Doubt it. I do agree with you tho, there is more to the story. Namely, Xtypers car is NOT dialed in.
        Nothings hard to me about that but some people don't no.. Just saying.. But now there saying the car was reflagged by the dealer.. Who knows not me but I think in my opinion that loons like a he'll of a difference sure tunes and setups very but I don't think that much but like I said who am I
      1. propain's Avatar
        propain -
        From Jeremy on MBW

        Thanks guys. Many runs were made, with the same results. The runs were any car got an unfair jump were not included. Each run was fair and from an even go. xtyper will agree with me on this. I have no plans to rematch unless considerable or different mods are done. FYI, there is no such thing as a partial reflash from the dealer, so I will not be entertaining that notion. Other fully modded C63s have also seen the same outcome.
        OE Tuning FTW!

        A reply to me asking if he was running a full interior

        Yes Jim, full interior. Both cars were on "R" compound tires. Runs in Sport & Manual transmission modes gave the same results.
        and thats that. Nice kill.
      1. PetroC63's Avatar
        PetroC63 -
        Not all Headers and Tunes are created equal.

        I changed tunes and my car ran faster in worse DA.

        I'm changing headers this fall when the weather cools down to document the differences
        between headers.
      1. BAD430BENZ's Avatar
        BAD430BENZ -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LZH Click here to enlarge
        Well there you have it. But I really have no clue as to how driver skill comes to play in this situation...other than reaction time. HONK HONK HONK, mash throttle, steer straight. Any retard can do that.
        i personally think that driver's skill has a lot to do with it . you have to know your car's limits . i'm not taking any sides as far as the 2 cars go , cuz i don't know either driver , but i'm sure Jeremy has a bit more knowledge about his car . you have to know what gear to be in and where the powerband is spot on .

        i don't watch Nascar , but if any retard can mash the throttle and steer , why don't they all win all the time ? like i said , i don't watch it or really care about it , but from the people around my work that follow it , seems like the same guys are usually the front runners and leaders in the points race . i do know that Nascar has limits on what they can do to their cars , so seems like driver's skill has a lot to do with it .
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        So any conclusion on if Xtyper's car was flashed back to stock by the dealer?
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Dodger63 Click here to enlarge
        Sorry I'll keep away after this but I'm sure there are other things that aren't accounted for.. Opinions are like $#@!s everyone has one.. And mine is that; there is more then meets the eye in that one thats all I'm I wrong could I be sure, but a 3-4 cat jump that fast is a big difference prob 1/4 - 3-4 of a second in the 1/4 mile or so granted that was a role. Which adds many more aspects and maybe not so much of driver error but possible driver little experience? Again jump on me do what u want it's fine I'm a big boy but that's my opinion.. And the fact that it's Jeremy OEs finest to me means that a video like that could sell more tunes for him in a minute so with that being said I like Jeremy you can ask him himself! And ask Propain I do not give a crap about tuner wars or there profits Andy jeremy all I wish them all the bear and am a pure enthusist that knows nothing about professional racing but a little about running this particular car on the street and in the track
        Well, there you go. Driver experience was cited as a factor.
      1. LZH's Avatar
        LZH -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BAD430BENZ Click here to enlarge
        i personally think that driver's skill has a lot to do with it . you have to know your car's limits . i'm not taking any sides as far as the 2 cars go , cuz i don't know either driver , but i'm sure Jeremy has a bit more knowledge about his car . you have to know what gear to be in and where the powerband is spot on .
        Maybe...on a road course. From a roll there is very little skill involved besides reaction time. Being in the right gear or powerband ?? Have you seen a tuned 63 dyno graph and seen how much power is avail above 3000 revs ?? These motors rev so fast in the lower gears...the variables you mention would make very little difference in this scenario. Especially considering the results we saw in the video.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BAD430BENZ Click here to enlarge
        i don't watch Nascar , but if any retard can mash the throttle and steer , why don't they all win all the time ? like i said , i don't watch it or really care about it , but from the people around my work that follow it , seems like the same guys are usually the front runners and leaders in the points race . i do know that Nascar has limits on what they can do to their cars , so seems like driver's skill has a lot to do with it .
        I don't watch NASCAR either, but I am familiar with it and the skill level involved. And it's HARDLY the same as the street race discussed in this thread. And I said mash the throttle and steer STRAIGHT. Turning a Cup car at 180+ mph with other cars inches from you on every corner is a far cry from this little late night drag race from a roll.

        I guess everyone is entitled to their opinion and I respect that. But if anyone thinks driver skill was a major reason for the discrepancy in this race, then I suggest you take a few advanced DE classes and you will see where skill is really needed to go quickly; and respectively, keep up with someone who has it.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LZH Click here to enlarge
        Maybe...on a road course. From a roll there is very little skill involved besides reaction time. Being in the right gear or powerband ?? Have you seen a tuned 63 dyno graph and seen how much power is avail above 3000 revs ?? These motors rev so fast in the lower gears...the variables you mention would make very little difference in this scenario. Especially considering the results we saw in the video.
        It is definitely true that there is much more skill involved in road racing and roll on pretty much comes down to timing. Gear errors should not be repeated by anyone.
      1. DD GT3 RD's Avatar
        DD GT3 RD -
        this changes things if true... seems there needs to be a rematch

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by James@ACGSD Click here to enlarge
        Sorry guys I've been out of the office all day, got to spend some good time with the Weistec guys, great group of gents!


        As for this video, there are a few tid bits that are missing, but I'll leave it at this. Last month Xtyper dyno'ed 470whp on OE tunings Dyno, last week he went back to OE Tunings dyno and put down a whopping 400whp after he thought his dealer reflashed him. Fair to say that this vehicle is of a car with a tune against one that does not. I will however eat my words if Jeremy kicks his butt again as xtyper got his ecu reflashed today.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        ^ Sounds fair enough.
      1. propain's Avatar
        propain -
        After thinking about this more, just like the Andy race, I see no reason he should rematch him. Why should he offer himself up again to help ACG or MBH prove a point and sell more headers? He is the only one with something to lose. If he wins "Hes the tuner and we dont really know if it was fair" If he loses "WOW! That MBH/ACG combo is the real deal!!" and he loses money.

        Let the tuners be tuners and let the customers and the numbers do the talking.
      1. DD GT3 RD's Avatar
        DD GT3 RD -
        well here is Xtypers response...im just confused as to whats going on with the tune situation

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by xtyper Click here to enlarge
        I think there was a misunderstanding here. Last week when I drove down to ACG after the low dyno results at your shop, James read out my file and determined that the portion of the ECU overwritten from the dealer rendered it "unretuneable" until a decryption could be determined. Thats why i had to make the trip back down yesterday for the fresh reflash. So our races were with no retune, but the car did feel stronger that night compared to the dyno time having filled up with 3/4 tank of fresh gas. So from my perspective there are two variables that MAY have caused my car to be running less than optimal during our runs: 1) effect of residual 1/4 tank of possibly bad gas still running through the system, and 2) the lack of full tune reflash.


        Obviously as of yesterday both those variables have been eliminated. While the car does again "feel" stronger now than it did during the runs, I still expect your car to pull me, although hopefully just not by as much. Your abilities as a tuner are nothing short of amazing and it is clear that the Gintani hardware you're running is equally impressive and well matched. Combine that with your great driving skills, I don't see how I could beat you unless I do another considerable mod.


        I would be anxious to see a few more runs against you with my current setup, then let you tune my spare ECU and go back out for a few more to compare. Just hit me up whenever if you're interested.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        I'm not really sure what to think but a re-run would go a long way toward answering some questions.
      1. c32AMG-DTM's Avatar
        c32AMG-DTM -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        I'm not really sure what to think but a re-run would go a long way toward answering some questions.
        Agreed. Unfortunately, Jeremy/OE stated he has no interest in a re-run, unless xtyper adds some additional and considerable mods (or something to that effect).

        The only definitive conclusion we seem to be able to draw, is that OE's shop car, with their own tuning and a full Gintani header-back exhaust, is repeatably and convincingly quicker/faster than this particular ACGSD-tuned, MBH-headered car. Which may or may not have even had a properly functioning aftermarket tune in it at the time.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by c32AMG-DTM Click here to enlarge
        Agreed. Unfortunately, Jeremy/OE stated he has no interest in a re-run, unless xtyper adds some additional and considerable mods (or something to that effect).
        I spoke with Jeremy and I understand his reasoning for not wanting to. At this point this has all gotten so much attention it is in xtyper's best interesting to re-run with who knows what changes so Jeremy really has everything to lose in this.

        I'm not going to delve into it further but there are some very good reasons he is not willing to run him in particular again. It isn't my place to comment on them but from what I understand he is open to runs with other cars.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by c32AMG-DTM Click here to enlarge
        The only definitive conclusion we seem to be able to draw, is that OE's shop car, with their own tuning and a full Gintani header-back exhaust, is repeatably and convincingly quicker/faster than this particular ACGSD-tuned, MBH-headered car. Which may or may not have even had a properly functioning aftermarket tune in it at the time.
        This is the appropriate conclusion and exactly what one should derive, agreed.